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               History 104A, October 19: An Easter to Remember: The Beginnings of Christianity.

 

               Last time we talked about the fall and rise of Rome.  I'm not

 

          sure they fully fall unless they're eliminated.  Certainly their

 

          cultures continue.  In other words, did England fall during World War

 

          I or is England still there?  I think even in England, weren't

 

          there -- the English still exist in something called the United

 

          States, Australia, Canada.  They perverted the whole world, even in

 

          India.  However, the glory that was Rome is, as the story goes,

 

          certainly leaves a lot of curiosity as to why the greatness fell.  And

 

          as I indicated given, argued Christianity, and Pirrene argued Muslim,

 

          Islam nobody blames the Jews for that anyway, everything else maybe.

 

          In any case, other interpretations exist perhaps with a little more

 

          basis for them, if it fell.  And among those, with simply the

 

          expansion of the Germanic peoples into Rome, putting pressure on the

 

          empire, the bad administrative system which began to leave the city

 

          itself undefended as well as the inability financially to provide

 

          cleanup of the swamps.  And people began to leave because of the fact

 

          that the levy's didn't hold and therefore mosquitos began to expand

 

          again and malaria became prevalent.

 

               Another argument for decline and fall of Rome is the whole bread

 

          and circuses, the sense that people were not given productive

 

          employment.  And tied to that is a theory by a name named Wallbank who

 

          blamed it on slavery.  The Romans simply didn't have to work.  Slaves

 

          did everything for them.  While the Romans developed such technology

 

          including such things as the windmill, there was no need to.  You

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          could push some of the grinding stones and waterwheels with slave

 

          labor and slaves abounded.  And it was during the medieval period when

 

          slavery began to totally decline, when Rome was no longer there, that

 

          we began to see some of that Roman technology being put to use.  So

 

          the invasion from without though, I think has a lot to say with it.

 

               Another argument is sort of the Sodom and Gomorrah argument.  I

 

          don't know in I touched on the whole issue of Sodom and Gomorrah and

 

          the differences in interpretation, for example, between Jewish

 

          scholars and Christian scholars.  Christian scholars blame the

 

          destruction on the immorality of sex.  That's all we ever see when we

 

          see pictures of Sodom and Gomorrah is the sexual activity going on.

 

          But the Jewish scholars blame it on the lack of hospitality.  They

 

          didn't take care of their neighbors.  They weren't neighborly.  They

 

          didn't provide health, education, and welfare.  And again, that same

 

          argument has been made for Rome.  That while they provided bread and

 

          circuses, they did not provide productive employment, a national

 

          healthcare program, or anything of that kind of a nature.  And of

 

          course, many ultra conservatives who see that make ties to the United

 

          States in its decline quote/unquote and fall often blame it on the

 

          homosexuality, the excessive heterosexuality, whatever that means, and

 

          often ignore the whole issue of health, education, and welfare.

 

          Others blame that ignoring of people and seeing people as people may

 

          well be the actual cause for a fall of the United States.  Again, it's

 

          hard to prove any of these factors.  Probably the best one was Bury

 

          who argued that it was a combination of factors.  I tend to like that.

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          I tend to be somewhat eclectic in that I think all of the factors do

 

          play a role.

 

               I also mentioned the concept of the led in the pipes earlier and

 

          how that prevented the Roman purity from going on, because in Rome

 

          itself, they could not have a lot of children and reproduce, so

 

          whoever came into the society, all those barbarians, those Chinese and

 

          Indians, whoever came into your country and having a lot of kids while

 

          the white people just aren't having enough kids, which of course is

 

          not valid anyway.  You hear these kinds of arguments being made today

 

          certainly.  And so there is definitely a racist argument that was made

 

          for the decline of Rome by who else, Germanic scholars.  And one of

 

          the names of the scholars was a man named Frank.

 

               Either way, during this period of time, as people become

 

          frustrated as the money becomes inflated, as the coins become

 

          literally ugly and not worth a lot of money, there is the expansion of

 

          insecurity which breeds the need for security which breeds religion.

 

          Once again, Christianity was not the only religion that was expanding

 

          and offering salivation and offering a better life in the afterlife or

 

          in some form of continuation of life.  The question that of course

 

          arises is, why did Christianity prevail?  The answer for many of you

 

          and obviously we're not going to argue it, is that Christianity is a

 

          true faith, your true faith.  And obviously people recognized it and

 

          recognized the God.  However, as a historian, sociologist,

 

          anthropologist looking at it, we look at other perhaps causes,

 

          forgetting the religious response of truth.  And there were many

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          religions, as I indicated, in Rome.  The Roman military followed the

 

          Mithra derivation which is part of the Zoroastrian, the trend of the

 

          male, the strength of fire, the strength of battle, very male oriented

 

          very military oriented.  It didn't seem to appeal to many outside the

 

          military.

 

               Then there was a Isis/Osiris cult coming out of Egypt, which of

 

          course emphasized the mother goddess.  While it had a heaven, it had a

 

          termination of life, accepted, there was no real hell.  Zoroastrianism

 

          itself had a hell to it, a burning fire.  They may not have called it

 

          hell.  The question is, what did Christianity offer people?  There was

 

          also the philosophical offer of Neoplatonism.  Ethical culture is also

 

          exists more on the East Coast.  I don't think I've met anybody from

 

          the ethical culture religion faith?  It's much more active along with

 

          Unitarians.  Again, while I've met one or two Unitarians, I haven't

 

          met many in California.  Anybody encounter Unitarians?  Those are

 

          religions that are more, shall we say, philosophical than they really

 

          emphasize a sense of faith and afterlife and death.

 

               The basis for the expansion of Christianity perhaps is one and

 

          perhaps most important of all, it's missionary zeal.  Christ said, do

 

          not leave your fire of life under a barrel; meaning, it is your job to

 

          spread that faith.  And Christians are militant almost in spreading

 

          the faith.  What that translates to is, many religions did not go out

 

          to convert.  Zoroastrians, as I indicated, you had to be basically

 

          born into.  Judaism, I guess we indicate an ego, believes you come to

 

          them and then you spend a year studying.  And that's a long time.  And

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          most of all, for adult males to become a Jew and get that little piece

 

          cut off, it's kind of hard for them to adapt to.  Not very many men

 

          want an operation in that certain section at that age.  So this was a

 

          difficult faith to join, if you will.

 

               As I say, others dealt with female brains, male principles, but

 

          they may have gone out -- they were the mystics, mystical faiths, the

 

          Dionysian cults where wine, women, and song were celebrated, but it

 

          didn't give that sense of the missionary zeal.  The Christians had

 

          something else in that zeal.  They had a very simple story.  It wasn't

 

          like the secret cults where you joined and nobody else knew the secret

 

          of the cult, the Scientology or the Mason, secret handshakes of there

 

          was an openness to it.  There was a faith that had a story about a man

 

          who was God who died for everyone else's sins.  And one that did have

 

          some mystery, but that was not understandable.

 

               The sacrifice therefore for man's sins certainly had a major role

 

          to do with the expansion of Christianity.  The faith itself appeal

 

          today all classes of people, from slaves to the wealthy.  People

 

          adapted it because it gave them a sense of serenity.  I haven't seen

 

          the movie yet.  And in part it had good salespeople candidly.  The

 

          best of all was Paul or Saul as his name was or not.  It makes a

 

          difference how well something is advertised and sold and that

 

          missionary zeal went forth as well.  There are those who claim that

 

          Saul invented Christianity.  A man Homer Smith, in A Man and His Gods,

 

          using German historical research, argued that Paul, like many great

 

          leaders for some strange reason, was epileptic and the argument is

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          that during certain epileptic fits people get visions and that Paul

 

          received that vision on the road to Tarsus, Damascus, on the road to

 

          Damascus, and there, who saw Christ which he had never met.  And with

 

          that, Saul who had been a persecutor of Christians previously, turned

 

          around, converted to a faith that was, in a sense, at that time, a

 

          cult of Judaism, and began the process of spreading the story of an

 

          individual who died for people's sins.  Of course the name Christ is a

 

          Greek word meaning the messiah.  And Saul himself, Paul, was living in

 

          the Greek world of Damascus, Antioch, and Tarsus.  The story I think

 

          we're all familiar with or most of us are familiar with.  And that is

 

          that Christ went around claiming to be the king of kings, the son of

 

          God, whether it was a capital S or a small S becomes questionable, but

 

          seemed to fulfill the predictions in the Bible Isaiah and others of

 

          the coming of the messiah of God on Earth.  And he was challenged as

 

          king of the Jews of the Sanhedrim.  This was the Jewish council who

 

          spoke to Herod as well to the Roman prefect Pontius Pilot who decided

 

          to execute him by crucifixion.  And a Roman soldier aided his death by

 

          slitting open which side?  The left side?

 

          A    Right side.

 

               THE PROFESSOR:  His body was buried and disappeared, put in a

 

          cave and like a catacomb and then disappeared.  Translation, the

 

          belief being that he was resurrected.  He was then seen wandering by a

 

          number of witnesses afterwards for a short period of time.

 

               I got a call the other day from an individual -- this is

 

          absolutely off the subject but not totally -- who I hadn't seen in 20

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          some odd years from power lifting.  They're making a movie like

 

          pumping iron and they want to get me interviewed and was going to

 

          propose that I be added to the hall of fame for some strange reason, I

 

          don't know why.  He was going back to stories, and I don't have good

 

          memories of these kinds of things.  One day we had a weight lifting

 

          test on a Saturday and we went into Sunday which happened to be Easter

 

          Sunday.  And the audience up there was mainly Mexican American.  And I

 

          was doing the announcing on the microphone.  And I got on the

 

          microphone and it was about 12:30, look folks, I know this is Easter

 

          Sunday and you're very concerned, but don't worry about it, they found

 

          the body and cancelled easter.  He was amazed that I wasn't hung by my

 

          cahones.  I was just out of it since '98.  But it sounds like

 

          something, as you all know, I can have said.  I never question things

 

          that people tell me I have done or said.

 

               In any case, with the resurrection of Christ, which by the way

 

          does not appear for whatever reason in Roman literature.  There are

 

          stories of a number of people who claim to be messiahs, if you will

 

          saviors at the time but nothing that seems to deal with the large

 

          impact that Christians today feel.  It was probably a small group;

 

          therefore, not the recognition that we tend to see.  But what came out

 

          of that group, a small group, a small cult if you will, was a mass

 

          movement and perhaps a true faith, through in many ways, martyrdom.

 

          Translation, Christians in their solid belief faced death openly

 

          quote/unquote turning the other cheek for their faith.  When people

 

          saw that willingness to put forth their lives much in many ways like

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          Martin Luther King Jr. or Gandhi and a nonviolent civil disobedient

 

          way -- and I personally think that that's what's lost on some of our

 

          movements today, that sense of moral height an ethical height where

 

          you know you're right and you accept law or you die for your cause

 

          without crying or bitching or exchange or suing.

 

          A    And the Tibetans do.  They have done nonviolent protests for 53

 

          years now.

 

               THE PROFESSOR:  Well, maybe it's gotten them to a better

 

          afterlife -- I'm sorry, reincarnation, or maybe they went directly.  I

 

          don't know.  I wouldn't say it's gotten them nowhere.  And the Dali

 

          Llama has received a lot of respect throughout the world.  There's a

 

          lot of empathy for the cause.  It may not have gotten them their

 

          independence, but it's perhaps provided a salivation.  I have no doubt

 

          that if rebellion had broken out in Tibet, the Chinese communists

 

          would have done what they did on Tiennemen Square on the worse levels.

 

          I think that sense of the world's respect for the Tibetans was in many

 

          ways, the respect that was given for Christianity.  And not only that,

 

          I think that knowing all of these quote/unquote liberals in this

 

          country who have adopted the Dali Llama as a spiritual leader, I'm

 

          talking about white liberals who pay a fortune to hear him whenever he

 

          comes to this country, is an indication of a spread of the faith that

 

          we probably would have known nothing about except that they would have

 

          been wiped out except for that passive resistance.  But that's, you

 

          know, the way I view it.  Sorry.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm a violent

 

          person, so I could not function that way.  I go by George Bernard Shaw

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          that says, martyrdom is the only way a man can become famous without

 

          ability.  I respect it, by all means.

 

               And again, if Christ were crucified and resurrected in 33 ADCE,

 

          it really wasn't until the fourth century that you really begin to see

 

          that spread of Christianity.  And here I don't know if you can see

 

          these pentagons or whatever they are -- five shaped figures.  If you

 

          look here, this is the spread in the fifth century.  In the first

 

          century of Christianity, you pretty much see it in a very small narrow

 

          area of the Middle East and partly into Egypt.  So you're talking

 

          about 300 years.  And so 50 years is nothing historically dealing with

 

          the Tibetans.  What we're talking about is a movement that takes

 

          hundreds of years for people to adapt to.  Of course part of that

 

          adaption comes about with the quote/unquote the decline and fall of

 

          Rome.  People see something else, a higher sect and join in; or again

 

          based, on your views, the true faith.

 

               In dealing with that expansion itself, the first -- I pointed out

 

          that while Christianity is expanding, it really doesn't get its depth

 

          in Rome until that's fourth century or in the Mediterranean when

 

          Constantine allows after the edict of Milan, the ability of Christians

 

          to worship freely in the Roman empire both East and West.  And then

 

          with Theodosus at around the end of the fourth century, making it the

 

          faith of the Roman empire.

 

                I know what else I forget to mention.  Another element of

 

          Christianity at that time, not so perhaps today, but certainly of the

 

          early Christian faith, salivation came through only seven sacraments.

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          You didn't have to read, study, but there were seven sacraments which

 

          are an outward signs of an inward gains.  They include such things as

 

          baptism, picked up perhaps from John the Baptist, confirmation,

 

          marriage, holy blessed rights they used to be called.  There's seven.

 

          And the acceptance of those became the basis of the passing on of

 

          salivation itself.  In any case, the other faiths are still there.

 

               And we begin to see some organism of the church and certainly

 

          taking up the posts in the Roman cities where they begin to set up the

 

          bishops and Rome itself is emptied by the Romans.  And as I indicate,

 

          they head off as a capital to Ravenna which is better defended and

 

          Rome is left under the administration of the Pope and certainly Leo

 

          who some may have said is the first of the Popes having and convincing

 

          Attila of the Hun to leave that area in the fifth century in 451.  And

 

          as we can see here, it replaces Rome around the Mediterranean sea.

 

          This area does become Christian by the fifth century.  And within this

 

          base and within the faith they pick up on some other religious

 

          elements, one of which is being hermits, hermitage.  It was pretty

 

          common in the orient for people to go out in the wilderness and live

 

          in a cave, much like Mohammed did, to find religion, to find God.  And

 

          the weather there allows for it.  And of course they followed the

 

          sense of Christ going out in the dessert for 40 days.  And that sense

 

          of being creates some very strange actions on the faith.

 

               One guy, Simon Stylus was the name given to him because he lived

 

          on the poll, literally on top of the poll for 40 years.  Food was

 

          brought up to me.  We've had some strange tree huggers go up in the

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          trees and live up there for a long period of time too.  Others went

 

          off to caves, and again, showed their dedication which spread to

 

          others.

 

               And then in the north because the weather wasn't quite as

 

          favorable to individuals going out and living on their own, it needs

 

          more community, we develop what's known as the monastic movements.

 

          And monasteries begin to clear the land.  They worked together as part

 

          of the faith.  And we create monastic orders.  Of course perhaps the

 

          most famous was the Benediction, the sense of work, faith, celibacy.

 

          By the way, a monk is someone who lives under an order.  And they are

 

          usually not priests in that they cannot give the sacraments.  They are

 

          cloistered, meaning they live within the monastery.  They can teach

 

          but people come to the monastery where their main element is working

 

          for Christ.  And a lot of the innovations, especially in agriculture,

 

          came out of these northern monasteries.  And of course we continue

 

          that tradition, not just from fourth century, fifth century on, but

 

          some of you may remember from your genetics, Mendel and his work with

 

          chick peas as a monk and the whole basis of genetics at the end of the

 

          19th century.  So it is not something that just stays and -- you know.

 

               It is also argued that because of the spread of monasticism and

 

          the spread of Christianity that is less of a reverence for nature,

 

          that primitive people lived with nature and feared it.  They feared

 

          those little trolls and elves and fairies and, you know, in the

 

          forests, the gargoyles, scare them away.  Did you read about those

 

          people found in Indonesia that was only about 12,000 years old and

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          they were apparently only about 3 feet tall?  They were now calling

 

          them Lord of the Rings or something.  How many people read about that?

 

          Interesting little tidbits that maybe there is some truth to.  Oh

 

          well -- with big feet.  We don't know if they were hairy or not.

 

               It is argued that the lack of reverence for nature because

 

          Christianity had one God, allowed for the devastation of the forests

 

          and the lands and that the hard work interfered with environmentalism.

 

          We'll let you go from there on that one.

 

               In any case, that expansion itself that faith that isolation

 

          later leads to a different kind of monastic order which is basically

 

          the development of convents, and that is friars and sisters rather

 

          than nuns.  Friars live under an order but they go out and they

 

          preach.  They go out and they teach.  They work in the community, the

 

          dominions certainly 13th century AD right next door here are sisters.

 

          They are not totally cloistered.  They spend some time in the

 

          cloisters in the convent, but they can go forth and work in the

 

          community.  The nuns and the monks today also get out into the

 

          communities as well.  And of course there are individuals besides,

 

          during this period of time, whose names become important for their

 

          teaching such as St. Augustine and his City of God coming out of the

 

          Alexandria area here.  And certainly the stories of other teachers

 

          from mostly the areas in here that begin to develop some of the

 

          theory; St. Augustine the City of God, famous work dealing with the

 

          concept of church and honor and to some extent perhaps the identity

 

          with Rome.  That's certainly a questionable level.

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               The primacy of Rome coming out of it, if you will, meaning how

 

          come Rome becomes the center of the church.  And of course, as I

 

          indicated before, by the seventh century, the other major cities with

 

          their Popes, disputes over who was in control or their bishops --

 

          Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, Damascus, and Constantinople.  What happens

 

          is Constantinople becomes very isolated and develops a different what,

 

          we call the eastern religion, the Aryan faith.  And of course by 1453

 

          disappears as a Christian city.  And so Rome is pretty much left to

 

          dominate the center of Christianity and remains the center of western

 

          Christianity until the year 1517 when a man by the name of Martin

 

          Luther, not Martin Luther King Junior please, Martin Luther, posted on

 

          Halloween, all hallows night, October 31st they have arguments against

 

          what he believed the Catholic church was preaching, which started what

 

          we know as the Protestant reformation.  It succeeded.  Many of the

 

          theories and ideas that we presented previously as philosophy had been

 

          presented previously.  His sunk in because of the times and because of

 

          the age itself.

 

               I've got the seven sacraments here:  Baptism; confirmation;

 

          matrimony; the Eucharist, where the bread and wine enters into a

 

          mystic communication as the blood and body of the Christ; extreme

 

          angst, which as I indicated, are the last rights; and ordination, a

 

          Christian becoming a priest.  I mentioned St. Jerome and St.

 

          Augustine.

 

               What I would like to do is some of you have your packets with you

 

          and in the back of your packet, the one that has the booklet on it, if

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          you have it, if not, it's okay, you can follow me.  On page 23 there

 

          is a cross to bear, if you will.  We have a group meeting on Friday --

 

          as the Roman citizen in the first or second century, would you have

 

          converted to Christianity, why or why not.  For those that have the

 

          cross, it's one of those nice little gimmicks for aiding you in

 

          understanding perhaps, to have some of the power of the church and the

 

          reasons for that power.  I want to go around and explain it in part.

 

               We'll start at the top and go to the left.  Tithe -- what is the

 

          tithe?

 

          A    It's a tax.

 

               THE PROFESSOR:  It's a tax placed on people who are members of

 

          the church.  10 percent of a person's income was given, collected for

 

          the church.  That is still part and parcel of some faiths today,

 

          certainly the Mormon faith is one.  The World Church of God not only

 

          collects 10 percent of year, but on the third year collects an extra

 

          10 percent.  Many churches, including like Jewish temples, base a

 

          percentage on your income to become a member.  Obviously, the power it

 

          wields is wealth.  The money that went to the church can be used for

 

          church preachings, buildings, teaching, education, et cetera.

 

               Sacraments -- gave people a belief that they could achieve

 

          salivation.  And following basically six rules, not a lot of

 

          complexity to it.  But the power of the church, it was only the

 

          priests and the church that could issue those sacraments.  If you were

 

          not a member of the church and the sacraments were cut off, you were

 

          doomed at least for God knows how long.  And I guess that's literal,

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          in purgatory, meaning between hell and heaven.  One of the things that

 

          Catholic Church, by the way, eliminated back in 1963 was something

 

          known as limbo, not the dance under the bar.  That was the place where

 

          people who did not know Christianity would wait until judgment day.

 

          They were outside of hell, purgatory, and Heaven.  Somehow it was

 

          decided that was not a proper interpretation of Biblical teaching.

 

               Missionary zeal -- the spreading of the gospel.  Perhaps the Pope

 

          that was most active in pushing missionaries was Gregory the Great as

 

          a Pope in the end of the sixth century and the beginning of the

 

          seventh century.  Perhaps the strongest of the Popes in medieval times

 

          in the early medieval times, famous also for the Gregorian chants, but

 

          sending out to the Germanic tribes, sending out to the Visigoths to

 

          the galls or franks and sending out visionaries as far as Ireland.  It

 

          is also believed that some of those missionaries may well have reached

 

          the new world.

 

               Church courts -- perhaps similar to the old military courts.

 

          People who were priests were tried not in civil courts but in church

 

          courts.  Anything dealing with the church was tried within special

 

          courts that were run by the priests, the bishops.  I haven't used the

 

          term cardinals because cardinals don't come into effect until later in

 

          the medieval period.  Perhaps the most infamous of those courts

 

          becomes the papal court, starting in the 13th century, which we know

 

          as the inquisition that reaches its full power in the 15th century,

 

          the Spanish inquisition, where people who's faith is questionable are

 

          brought before the court and forced to confess.  If they don't

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          confess, they're crushed to death, beaten until they confess in some

 

          way.  And of course we know in Joan of Arch and others who are placed

 

          in the fires of purity that are called the auto de fe A-U-T-O D-E F-E,

 

          the testing of faith to purify.  And I think I talked about it

 

          earlier, didn't I, how if you confessed to your crime, to your sin,

 

          you were garreted, strangled before you were burned.  But if you

 

          refused to confess, you were burned alive.  Either way, you went to

 

          hell.

 

               Education -- up until basically the 18th century, the church

 

          controlled what you learned, the knowledge you received.  I pointed

 

          out that people got their education by going to the monasteries and

 

          often what we might call elementary schools were held within the

 

          monasteries.  Priests taught philosophy, learning, education of

 

          various forms, and people came to them.  And by the 13th century,

 

          1200, we began to see the formation of a higher educational system

 

          called the universities that were under the cathedrals.  And the

 

          cathedrals, the bishops appointed a rector, a president rather, a

 

          chancellor to run those universities who was a member of the clergy.

 

          And we'll talk further about some of those individuals.  Obviously

 

          knowledge is power.  And if the church controlled the knowledge, it

 

          had the power over people's lives.

 

               Anointing of kings -- kings claimed to be God given.  And prove

 

          that they were God directed, God driven, they received their crown

 

          from the hands of the bishop.  The bishops placed the crown on the

 

          king's head literally.  Much like -- we mentioned Charlemaigne who had

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          the Pope come to Aachen in Germany or the holy Roman empire and crown

 

          him holy Roman emperor.  Therefore, the church, when it didn't like a

 

          king, could take that power away by removing their sanction of that

 

          king.  We'll talk more about that under excommunication and interdict.

 

               I also identified the power and strength and role of the church

 

          came from its technological advances in farming.  It developed such

 

          things as the three field system of agriculture where one field was

 

          left fallow, not to be grown to help the land.  What's the word I'm

 

          looking for?  Re-fertilize itself.  That's not the world.  And of

 

          course from these monasteries there created a whole system of

 

          excessive wealth because they began to sell their goods and they began

 

          to invest it in the land.  And some of the monasteries became

 

          extremely wealthy from their farming and farming innovations.  In the

 

          ninth century or in the tenth century, 900s, the Cistercians were very

 

          much involved in also creating bookkeeping that later is going to be

 

          used in the development of capitalism.  That's getting ahead of the

 

          story.

 

               Excommunication -- church didn't like you, felt you were a

 

          heretic, you spoke out, you were removed from the church,

 

          excommunicated.  You became an outcast.  You were ostracized.  What it

 

          meant was, you could not get the sacraments.  If you were not

 

          receiving any of the sacraments, communion, baptism, confirmation,

 

          whatever, then you were doomed for damnation.  And you said who gives

 

          a shit?  The answer is, people did because they believed it.  It was

 

          an absolute faith.  Many of you wouldn't in a sense being concerned.

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          Maybe even being kicked out of America couldn't concern you.  But when

 

          people had a sincere faith, this was damage to their existence.  And

 

          so the threat of excommunication, which by the way still goes on

 

          today, as you know, not just the Catholic church, but other churches

 

          use excommunication, was the means of removing people who are heretics

 

          or in opposition to the church philosophy.

 

               I'll pick up for the second half and then go into the group

 

          meeting.  If you don't bring it with you, you might want to bring it

 

          with you next time.  See you on Friday.  Group meeting Friday.

 

                                        ---oOo---