History 104A, September 16:Beware of Dorian Greeks!

               Well, I've been trying to decide exactly where to begin with our

          new topic.  Of course we do have a group meeting today, if I recall

          correctly, finishing up on Mesopotamia.  I would prefer I think to run

          the group meeting at the end as I usually do and just start with the

          Greeks or at least the Minoans within some element of it.  And I'm not

          sure at what level to begin with them, or if I should start or deal

          with the Trojan war.  It is a Friday and so maybe it's -- and on a

          Friday, the last day of the week, maybe we should play some games with


               Around 2000 BCE there were movements of people which we refer to

          as Indo-Europeans.  They all look like Brad Pitt, settled in various

          areas of Greece -- Mycenae, perhaps the Hittites, and certainly Troy

          which was located here.  And they came down as roving bands with a

          change custom by our value system at least.  They had a system of

          mentoring children so that they would grow up to have the same strong

          traits of their mentor.  And basically what it was, at about the age

          of 12 or 13, the parents would pay a prominent male to rape their boy.

          Q    What?

               THE PROFESSOR:  I heard the what.  I told you it was a little

          different.  Parents would actually hire a mentor, pay him, and then

          that mentor would steal the boy, have a phony marriage, if you will,

          and inject his strength and power into the boy in a sexual fashion, is

          that the way to place it.  And then after that marriage, that mentor

          would continue to educate and work with the boy as if he were an


          apprentice, although, after a certain point in time, the sex stopped.

          Translation, it's a form of homosexuality that we would call

          ritualized.  It was not what we would call a permanent or homosexual

          act as we would see it.  You know, it was like going into the navy.

          Thank you.  At least somebody was listening.

          Q    Why would they -- what would they -- like raping him have to do

          anything with it?

               THE PROFESSOR:  Well, you're putting your fluids inside.

          Q    So that means -- okay.

               THE PROFESSOR:  So by placing your fluids, you have created a

          connection.  As I say, it doesn't have to make sense to us.  It was a

          custom brought down in some fashion throughout this region.  I guess

          jumping ahead or whatever you want the deal with, the fact is, because

          of some of these traditions or custom, we often identify with the

          Greeks as homosexuals, we see them in that fashion, not identify with

          them.  I don't know what language that you use, but when we were in

          college or younger, when people would say the Greek way, it usually

          meant anal sex.  Is that a term used here, the Greek way?

          A    Not to my knowledge.

               THE PROFESSOR:  Well, so that element of the society produced, as

          I said, the Brad Pits of -- no.  I'm picking on Brad because of Troy.

          Q    So you think that I did that to -- you know the film like his

          cousin -- you think that he did that to him?

               THE PROFESSOR:  Let's put it this way.  It was not an uncommon

          tradition and it's hard to say.  Candidly, homosexuality as itself in


          an act on its own was actually outlawed in Athens, but the ritual

          structure wasn't.  And Socrates, we do know, had a sexual relationship

          for a while with an individual sometimes was considered a traitor in

          Athens by the name of Alcibiades.  The reason I'm identifying this is

          that it's difficult for me as it is for many of you to deal with

          different cultures, different values, different systems.

          Q    It was made obvious in the movie Alexander with Collin Feral.

               THE PROFESSOR:  I haven't seen it yet.

          A    I walked out of the movie theater.

          A    I walked out too.

               THE PROFESSOR:  Really, that bad?

          A    We watched like half of it.

               THE PROFESSOR:  Well, the original Alexander -- who was the -- it

          wasn't Richard Burton.  I actually picked it up on the DVD a while

          back just to prepare myself for the other Alexander, and that wasn't

          extremely great either, not bad, but it was considered a classic.  I

          will watch the new one just to walk out on it, I think.

          A    Don't waste your time trying to watch it.

               THE PROFESSOR:  It was certainly a part of life and culture in

          Greece.  And once again, it's hard not to make judgments; but again,

          we should not historically try to -- just accept that this is

          different in a sense than what we would comprehend or understand or

          deal it.  And sometimes, of course, it's used in films for shock

          affect because it is so contrary to our culture.  Apparently in the

          original film, Spartacus, there were a number of homosexual scenes


          that were cut out when the film was put on the market.  Spartacus was

          made in the 50s or 60s; however, when they put it out on DVD,

          considering the changes in our times, the scenes with Tony Curtis that

          were restored to the film.

               In any case, the group that came down into Greece were known as

          the Dorians.  As I indicated, they were basically lighter haired, blue

          eyed people coming into the area.  And in Greece from time to time you

          will see very light people, being blonde, blue eyed, Scandinavian

          looking, and people wondered where did they come from.  In reality,

          they may not have been descendants from the Dorians who, by the way,

          settled in the southern part of Greece which is the area we are going

          to talk about called Mycenae.  And that's the area off Agamemnon and

          Menelaus in the southern region.  But we also know that the Norsemen,

          the Vikings, moved with their ships -- marauding, robbing, stealing --

          into this area as well, settling around 1000 AD in southern Italy as

          well as in Greece.  It's often hard to judge where the various racial

          mixtures and types stem from historically.

               The culture of the Mediterranean region at around 2000 was fairly

          advanced most of what we know comes from myth, mythology.  Many of the

          famous myths that we have heard or read about dealt with the Trojan

          war, Troy.  In the middle of the 19th century, a very wealthy

          German -- he made money in the oil fields of Russia.  He made money

          actually in the gold fields of California.  A man by the name of

          Heinrich Schliemann had an absolutely fascination with the Iliad and

          the Odyssey.  He memorized every word, every comma of both books.  He


          believed it was real.  And when his wife died, he decided that he

          wanted to marry a Greek woman.  And at the age of 47 a marriage was

          arranged with a young Greek woman who came from a wealthy family who

          had lost much of their money.  And so he paid for the marriage.  It

          was arranged.  She was very well educated, spoke many languages, and

          she was 16 -- 47/16 -- it's not quite as bad as Jerry Lee Lewis.  He

          was 27 and she was 14.  Nobody know who Jerry Lee Lewis is?  He's

          famous for besides the 14-year-old marriage.  He comes from Kentucky,

          you know.  Wrote great balls of fire.  In any case, with his wife

          Schliemann, decided to spend the rest of his life looking for his

          beloved Troy and proving that it really excited.  And studying the

          Iliad he began to find various references to a place based on

          description or whatever that was located here in Turkey, believing

          they were a form of Greeks here, and entrance into the Black Sea which

          of course was very important trading routes for the Greeks.  It was of

          course the area of the Argonaut and the movements of some of the Greek

          myths as well.  I'm talking too slowly here so substitute I'm


               The area that he began to dig in with permission from the Turkish

          government, all the items that he found, if he found any, were to be

          turned over to the Turks.  And they would have a person on site to be

          sure that he didn't rip things off.  In any case, he dug through the

          area he believed was to be Troy and he came across an extremely

          wealthy city.  He was not really trained as an archaeologist and

          probably destroyed a lot of stuff to find the wealthy city which today


          most archaeologists believe was a much later Troy.  There are, I

          think, nine levels that they went through.  However, he found a lot of

          wealth and some of it he siphoned off.  He wanted to create a museum

          in Greece.  By the way, he named his three children with his new wife

          by names of people within the Iliad and the Odyssey.  I don't remember

          which names they were.  That love and passion was there.  The Turks

          found out that he had been ripping off the site and they kicked him

          out of the country.  He was very disappointed because the Greeks at

          that time, at around the 1870s, really had little interest in creating

          a museum.  And so the stuff that he had taken from Troy, he brought

          back to Munich, and they created a museum for the Trojan stuff there.

               Meanwhile, he decided to do some and excavations at the homeland

          with Achilles and Agamemnon came from.  There he came across a very

          very impressive civilization that seemed to have existed around the

          same time as Troy and named after the first city he found Mycenae.

          And found some large walls, gates, burial beehives where burials took,

          and gold and silver and lots of wealth, which again, much of it taken

          to Germany.

               The year of the Trojan war is generally given at around 1200.

          The year of the Trojan war, the story of the Trojan war is supposed to

          have lasted 10 years.  So somewhere around 1190, or if it started at

          1190, it ended around 1180.  Somebody put a hole in the condoms.  I'm

          in bad shape today.  I still don't know why they named a condom

          Trojan.  Was it because of the Trojan horse or beware of Greeks

          bearing gifts.  I told you it's Friday, so we have to think of


          something to think about over the weekend.  That would be an

          interesting term paper.  In any case, as we know the Greeks hit and

          the City of Troy, took in their offering, and out popped the Greeks

          destroying Troy from within burning most of it to the ground, despite

          the warnings that -- I'm losing the name here -- warnings of Greeks

          bearing gifts.  Of course coming out of that area, not on Odysseus and

          his travels through the Mediterranean, but another individual, became

          quite famous for the Trojan war who also disappeared his name was

          Aeneas within limitations on the spelling again.

               Aeneas is supposed to have been the founder of the Roman

          civilization.  The story on Aeneas is that he left Troy, escaped,

          travelled the Mediterranean like Odysseus, and wound up stopping off

          at a city known as Carthage.  The story of Aeneas has been exaggerated

          as propaganda during the period of Augustus and the period of the

          Roman empire by the famous Roman writer Vergil in Aeneid.  At

          Carthage, the queen of Carthage was a woman named Dido, which I think

          in Spanish means finger.  In any case, they had a slight affair going.

          And whether she rejected him or he decided to leave, the story from

          the Roman point of view was that he left.  Now, we need to understand

          something historically in the comic books wherever.  Superheros can't

          get messed up when they're men with women.  Superman was faster than a

          speeding bullet for a particular reason.  You can get it over with,

          but you have to get out there because women are going to cut your hair

          like they did with Sampson and destroy your power and your strength.

          I'm just giving some advice to the guys if they want to be superheros.


          If they want to be girly men -- that's another story.  It really has

          come down through history that the heroes, the men, could not be

          engaged with women.  And so they went off, Hercules with 40 children,

          all boys of course because he was a real man, et cetera.  We'll find

          those stories, some tales constantly repeating themselves.  So the

          real man, Aeneas, left Dido and that, for the Romans, explained the

          conflict between Carthage and Rome and the three Punic wars that were

          fought for control of the Mediterranean because the Carthaginians

          hated the Romans based on Aeneas leaving their beloved queen.

               The interesting part about Carthage is that it was a Phoenician

          port and city that later became one of the most powerful trading

          ports.  The founding day for Carthage is generally in the 800s BCE.

          However, if you recall, I mentioned the Trojan war is traditionally

          given somewhere around 1200.  Apparently, Aeneas travelled the

          Mediterranean for about 400 years.  But again, if Velikovsky is

          correct, that not only is there not a dark age in Greece, but then

          Phoenicia, Carthage, the Trojan war would have been around 800 which

          of course has always fascinated me.  There's no way to prove that

          stuff, but it's fascinating.

               In any case, Aeneas left and went to the Italian community where

          he had an opportunity to visit Hades, the underworld.  And there he

          saw the future, the future of these powerful Roman legions and the

          founding of the great City of Rome by two of his descendants, Romulus

          and Remus.  I think we know those names and we'll talk a little bit

          more about the movie later.  That is that story coming out of there.


               Another myth that seems to give us information about more of this

          area is a myth about a man, a hero, a superhero, again rejecting a

          woman so it doesn't tear down his greatness by the name of Theseus.

          Schliemann's work inspired a number of other archaeologists to start

          digging with Greece and Turkey.  However, another myth that fascinated

          archaeology at around 1900 was an archaeologist named Sir Arthur

          Evans.  And he decided that the stories of King Minos and the island

          of Crete and the Mentor must have had some value and validity.  And he

          began digging on Crete looking for the palace of Minos where the

          Mentor, which was half man and half bull, existed.  And he found the

          palace.  He found the City of Knossos, the capitol.  There again we

          found tremendous wealth, tremendous city, but more so a city that was

          not walled, indicated perhaps that the island was pretty well secure,

          a city that had been destroyed by fire.  And with the diggings, it had

          been identified and again you'll see different dates, somewhere from

          1400 to 1200 BCE, that island civilization disappeared founded

          somewhere around 2000, also, the island of Theria or the lost island

          of Atlantis destroyed by a volcano.  The only problem is that we know

          that Atlantis is out on the different galaxies and the Star Gate has

          taken us to where it is.  Atlantis was supposed to be beyond the

          pillars of Hercules which is the straits of Gibraltar.  So this

          concept doesn't make a lot of sense.

               The myths that interested Sir Arthur Evans, the myths of King

          Minos, the myths of Theseus, will have to wait until Monday because we

          do have a group meeting today based on life and death in Egypt and


          Mesopotamia.  Again, if you're not prepared, please do write it up and

          don't screw it up like some of you did by not writing up the other one

          and lose 10 points.

               Let me place on the table here the grading sheets.  Choose a

          chairperson to pick them up.  If you go outside, I'll follow you out

          and listen and not get into your groups.